2pc H t12 BiS for Sub/Combat in t13 content?

In case you need help decoding the title: Two pieces of heroic version (391 item level) tier 12 (Firelands content), Best in slot gear for Subtlety and Combat specs in tier 13 (Dragonsoul content/current content)? That is way too long.

This is pretty old news, but in case you hadn't heard, or hadn't seen...here are the explanations.

In case you're one of those people who doesn't care about the "why" of it all, I'll tell you straight up: in my opinion, based upon research and math, they are not BiS; and those people who made me think they were are rude because I put a lot of effort into farming up 391 gloves! Yeah, yeah. It's my own fault for not doing my own research and testing on it, but sometimes I just don't have the time for that and I trust other people who appear to be good at their class or are strong theorycrafters. So that you don't say the same thing of me, I try to post my math and findings, at least to the point that it is visible how I got to my conclusions.

In particular it was thought that 2pc H t12 (typically shoulders/gloves) were part of the BiS list for Sub (and Combat), but more the former than the latter. For instance the EJ Sub writer told me 2pc h t12 was ~2k DPS gain, although he didn't give me any real math or reasoning. I took him for his word and thought he had done his testing of course. His guide doesn't give any math (as I've complained about before) or even state an EP/DPS value on 2pc h t12, which is why I had to ask him in the first place. He happened to be on my server up until a few days ago when the guild he was in broke up.

Originally I questioned using a prior tier set bonus, heroic quality or not, due to the massive amount of agility loss from lesser item level/amount of sockets, especially because Sub has such high EP values on Agility, not to mention the other stat loss from using the lower level item. Like I said I didn't have time to look into it for a while, but when I started playing Sub my curiosity increased.

Example: BROKEN LINKS SADFACE

vs BROKEN LINKS SADFACE


Now this data will look even more skewed due to EJ EP values being updated within the past few days.

The two above items have a 76 agility difference and 101 stat difference so based upon EJ EP values 1 agility = 5.65 EP (newly updated) for Sub that is 429.4 EP for the Agility. Taking the second lowest stat, Crit (Mastery is worse), so as not to inflate the data, Crit is worth 2 EP per point. 101 x2 = 202 EP making the EP difference between the two items 631.4. On average, and this isn't stated anywhere I've found that I can recall, I find EP is a 1:2 DPS ratio; if an item is a 200 EP upgrade, it will equate to roughly a 400 DPS increase. If anyone has better findings or formulated values on this I will be glad to check and change my information. That being said if ONE item is ~1263 DPS difference, you would expect the other to be similar in difference due to the item levels being the same, so you could say the DPS loss from using two 391s for the 2pc over the two 410s would be a ~2500 DPS loss. Assuming the ~2k DPS gain from Herioc t12 2pc is correct (and I have not found it to be) that is still a 500 DPS difference, roughly. Ideally you're not going to use the second worst stat in the 101 stat loss conversion either, so it is really more than a 500 DPS difference. Also from shoulder to shoulder comparison there is a socket loss (but less base Agility difference) so add another 30 Agility loss. 30x5.65=169.5 EP ~= 339 DPS, so being more realistic it's probably a 900+DPS difference using the ~2k value for 2pc Heroic t12.

In my recent findings (based off WoL parses with and without 2pc active, my own and others) I've found the 2pc to gain ~1400-1600 DPS in the best of situations, sometimes far less, and certainly not 2k. This may be due to the fact that everyone in the parses I used are not full BiS t13, but it was a decent test pool. I was careful to use fight durations within a few seconds of one another in length.

db.mmo-champ has been giving me a lot of issues with my java lately and the ability to have roll overs, so if they don't work, my apologies and you now know why. It gives timeout errors frequently.

-Ochiru

I'll fix those links later......it is dark phoenix gloves (391) and blackfang battleweave gloves (410) if you want to wowhead it....I've been quite sick for weeks and I just don't have the mental ability to deal with it right now.

Want to learn Subtlety? Read this post.

Did you ever want to learn Subtlety, but thought it might be too difficult or complicated?
It really isn't. Hopefully this will help you.

On paper Sub seems to be a really challenging spec to play to its potential. It is true that learning Sub might seem daunting at first, but honestly once you give it some practice, it isn't that rough at all.
Sub definitely has the most management and the most buffs and dots to watch. It is without a doubt the most difficult of the three rogue specs, but in tier 13 it is also the highest single target damage spec by a pretty strong amount, and has benefits specific to itself that are not in any other talent tree.

Here is the "standard" Sub spec, and a few variants. There are also glyph differences in the bottom two specs so don't forget to check those.

Glyphs I use when standard Sub are Hemo/SnD/BS

8/2/31 - standard
9/1/31 - standard variant
8/2/31 - Ultrax
9/1/31 - Ultrax variant

I have a preference to Coup De Grace over 2% hit, as I only lose 88 crit rating and I value 7% more dmg on Eviscerate > 88 crit rating to stay hit capped personally.

If you have the freedom (or put in the effort) the bottom two specs are much stronger for Ultraxion / frontal-based fights for fairly obvious reasons. Check the glyphs and the changes from the "standard" spec to see the real benefits of it. While using an "Ultrax" spec you will want to drop Backstab, Ambush, and Shadowstep from your rotation. Hemo is your combo point builder, you can still Shadowdance and use Premed if you can weave it in without energy-capping (and be sure your stealth/SD bar is fixed for Ultrax). The rotation is the same minus those 3 abilities, so Hemo to 4-5 (HAT for 5th sometimes) and keep SnD/Recup/Rupture up. Still use Vanish for Master of Subtlety, and Prep for the same reason.

Some things you'll want to know about "standard" Sub to make good decisions on maintaining your highest dps:

Notable abilities/talents specific to Subtlety:
Mastery of Subtlety
Serrated Blades
Sanguinary Vein
Shadowstep - ShS
Preparation - Prep
Premeditation - Premed
Hemorrhage - Hemo
Find Weakness
Honor Among Thieves - HAT
Shadow Dance - SD

That should be all of them...others are shared by other specs, like Backstab (BS), Ambush, Garrote, Eviscerate (Evi), etc.

Basics:
To optimize your DPS as a Sub rogue you will want to start with 5 combo points on a boss (if you can, via crit healing pre-pull for example) hit SnD then pre-pot, Stealth, Premeditation, Shadowstep, Ambush, Rupture, Hemo, Backstab, Recup (at 5 CP). At this point your rotation is stable and you work on maintaining SnD, Recup, Rupture (via Serrated Blades, Eviscerating with 5 CP), Hemo bleed, and start using your cooldowns to maximize your Find Weakness and Mastery of Subtlety + Ambush/ShS/Premed DPS increases. You will not want to spam your abilities as much as: use one, check your energy level, check your CP, then make a decision to wait on a CP from HAT (Honor Among Thieves) or use another ability. Try to not energy cap or clip abilities. I know you're thinking, "That sounds like a lot to maintain and a lot to do continuously!" and it is, but the feel of it becomes smooth once you get those initial applications up. Rupture keeps itself up unless you're not paying attention at all, just by using Eviscerate when you're not re-applying something or mid-cooldown.

Here are the cooldowns you will need to manage:

Shadow Dance - 1 minute
Vanish - 2 minutes
Shadowstep - 30 seconds
Premeditation - 20 seconds


Shadow Dance will pretend you're Stealthed so you may use abilities as if you were so, however you will not receive Master of Subtlety due to not "actually" being Stealthed. You will receive Find Weakness though since you're using Ambush/Garrote/Cheapshot as the ability stipulates. When you use Shadow Dance you typically want to have low or no combo points and high energy so you can ambush more, I often try to line up Tricks (2pc t13) to reduce cost of abilities by 20% for 6 seconds, since Shadow Dance unglyphed is the same duration and it allows me to do more. Usually I would recommend Shadowdance > Shadowstep, Ambush, Premeditation, Ambush Ambush Ambush weaving Eviscerates in as you hit 5 CP. Try to get an Ambush near immediately, and finish the dance with one so you get full Find Weakness uptime.

Vanish will get you Stealthed and allow you to use Premed and Ambush (with ShS).

Shadowstep is to be used during Shadowdance and Vanish when you Ambush.

Premeditation is to be used anytime you Shadowdance or Stealth or Vanish.

One last thing for a more advanced Sub player:

If you have any stage of the Legendary daggers, when you originally apply Rupture with 5 CP/MoS/Pre-pot it will not be as strong as if you were to Vanish and apply with Wrath of Unchaining stacks, Landslide procs, and high stacks of Shadows of the Destroyer (say 35-40 with Legendaries, 50 with grade 1-2). 40 stacks of Legendaries gives you 680 Agility, 880 Agi from WotU, and then 1100 ATP per Landslide. If you can apply Rupture with a double Landslide plus potion, it'll be 5320 ATP higher; with one Landslide it would be 4220 ATP higher than original. In addition you'll pretty much be guarenteed to proc your Legendaries during that pot as well, possibly with a couple seconds of MoS. Granted, you won't have a pot for Heroism (if you don't Hero at the pull which is a frequent occurance) but it'll be utilized well. If you do Hero on pull, with your pre-pot rolling then this is even more advantageous.

Most people I'm sure were under the impression that Rupture refreshing from Serrated Blades would not refresh to the original stat application, but it does. Back in WotlK with Locks/Shadow Priest could pre-pot with a 550 haste pot and apply Corruption/Shadow Word:Pain and refresh it to max duration while maintaining original application stats, Rupture for rogues works in that same general way. You apply with max stats and it'll refresh itself with originally applied statistics, therefore the higher your Agility/ATP are during application, the more damage you'll get out of Rupture.

This is a min/maxing thing to consider; it can vary on fight situation and gear, but on average it'd be +300 DPS gain on Rupture on a ~5min fight.

I hope this helps everyone interested in Subtlety who comes to my blog, please feel free to leave comments or in game chat me up about questions. Thanks for coming.

-Ochiru


(edit: Found an issue with "Ultrax" spec, fixed.)